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4 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
Gianluca wrote:
Today we are 730 Toast

Applause
5 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: Cleaning up the program categories
sl23 wrote:
208? How many are there?

Today we are 730 Toast
7 days ago
Topic:
Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?

sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
Sorry, yes, the Akai thing was I believe, about bug-fix and further updates.
12 Euros is fair, and would give you a nice incentive to keep going! wink
I stay logged in anyway, I tried to create some more SPS but I find it a struggle to keep up with it, sorry!I don't know how you do it?!
I really hope you don't give up, but I get it. I for one would definitely miss it! It is one of a handful of programs that are used daily and not just for updates, but actually use it to open apps and folders. It has become a major part of my workflow!
7 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
Aw, thanks Gian, grouphug

208? How many are there?

Um, never used google sheets, but sure I can figure it out, being "a really smart person!" Green Tongue
8 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: Cleaning up the program categories
scentse wrote:
I'm certain everyone agrees that 255 categories is too many.

No doubt on it.
Now that the job is taking shape, if you want any help with it, you can load the Excel in a Google sheet and share it with me. This way I can give my contribution, Google sheet preserve the versions, and we can comment every change there.

And if you (and sl23) agree we could add him too. As you noted he's a really smart person and has a clear vision of the entire project... Well, he's been helping SyMenu since... I don't even remember but it's been years... Think about the sl23 user ID is 208...
8 days ago
Topic:
Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?
sl23 wrote:
Subscription type charges tend to put people off. Go look at Akai unofficial MPC forum and search for subscription. One guy suggested it and every other user was against it!

If I'm not wrong, the suggestion in Akai forum was about subscription for bug fix and software further improvements. And I totally agree with the opponents.

SyMenu, as you correctly asserted, is and remains a free tool.
The management of the thousand programs instead requires more resources and should be the service you are asked to pay for.
It's not similar to the proposal for Akai but it's the same logic behind the streaming services: you access a continuously changing collection of movies, you pay to sustain the development.
Naturally the price should be much less than your supposed 20€ (per year), maybe 12€ per year? One Euro per month?

Anyway all this conversation is premature and useless with no affordable data on the SyMenu users.
For that reason I'm developing a login system to access the SPS Manager. This way I'll start to know how many users are really using the SPS thing and taking consequent decisions.
The login will be free for all and, if you already have it, you can use the same credentials you use for this forum.
The login won't be too annoying because you login the first time and then the system will remember you until you explicitly logout.
If you have more than a SyMenu installation you can use the same credentials for all of them. There's no limit to it. I want to count the users, not the installations. And I'm really curious to see how many users will pop up from the 3.000 different installations currently hidden behind a single ID.
As soon as I am ready to release you'll have other details.

There's another possible outcome from the login thing.
If I discover that the SPS users are too few, I'll close the entire project.
My boost in all these years has always been the conviction SyMenu was useful for a lot of people. As I asserted more than once, in my mind, SyMenu is a sort of time economizer. With this project I help people to spare time and to dedicate that time to more productive, funny, useful activities.
The claim could be: SyMenu helps you to stay with your family, more!
But to be really useful the community must be wide enough.

Let's see.
10 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

scentse
scentse
Posts: 26
sl23 wrote:

Hope you don't mind the gentle criticism, just trying to help. smile


Thanks for your ideas, they're most certainly helpful.
Some I'd already considered, others I'll implement going forward.

Bear in mind, this process is far from complete.

I sent the early screenshot so @Gianluca would have an idea of the spreadsheet's format.

Worth acknowledging, everyone maintains a different organization & structure.
Nonetheless, I'm certain everyone agrees that 255 categories is too many.
10 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
Spell checkers, Office Suite, PDF editing should just be under category OFFICE. Productivity means nothing to me personally and could include a very broad amount of apps that doesn't really describe the content very well. Computers are productive and everything you do on them is more productive than doing similar jobs without a computer. So I personally don't like that word as a category.


Audio and Video should be two separate categories too instead of lumping all together.

Graphics & Photos could simply be called Imaging, or just call it Graphics.


Internet Tools... just call it INTERNET. Cause really, you could add Tools to many other categories to fill them out a bit.

Hope you don't mind the gentle criticism, just trying to help. smile
10 days ago
Topic:
Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?

sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
scentse wrote:
...

What he said! Whaaaaa?
10 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

scentse
scentse
Posts: 26
Gianluca wrote:

I'm a bit confused here.

The present situation is something like this...


The screenshot must be from the SPS Builder.

The drop down menu looks rather clean.

But in the main program, those are just cutoff fields unless the category column is stretched wide.

As for your points 1,2,3
That's not confusing at all.
It's what's being implemented.

A lot of merging categories with under five programs.



Many categories can be batch processed.
But certain categories contain unrelated programs that must be regrouped one by one.
These categories are marked with an *.

The super category is in most instances the wording before the hyphen.
This is listed in a separate third column.

Perhaps redundant, but there nonetheless.


@sl23's suggestion of using just one word for categories is a bit unrealistic.
But it is potentially workable for super-categories.

It requires lots of back and forth to analyze what structure works.

Please remember these are just proposed.


Screenshot so far...

11 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: Cleaning up the program categories
I'm a bit confused here.

The present situation is something like this:




You can read every line as a super category and a specialized one (parent - children).
It's not different from the MajorG organization apart from the fact that every group has been expanded.
If you think the super category can be useful, I agree with you.
If you think the super category can be deleted, I agree with you.
The important thing is that your choice makes sense and is consistent.

In my opinion the rework should have multiple targets:

1) eliminate duplications. For example "Internet - FTP clients" and "Internet - FTP servers" could be condensed as "Internet - FTP" because the program's descriptions will be enough to discern between one and the other and the unique category won't be too crowded. Or "Internet" super category and "Internet - Miscellaneous" can be joined together in "Internet" because a super category can accept an entry;

2) meaning improvement. For example as a user I don't have an idea on what "Internet - Media Clients" means. Probably can contain tools to stream videos and music to the client (Spotify, Netflix). So could it be best named "Internet - Streamers"?

3) eliminate useless entries. For example "Internet - Offline Browsers " could be related to tools like WinHTTrack and Cyotek WebCopy that are technically offline browsers. If you see their real SPS categories, the editors classified them respectively as "Internet" and "Internet - Miscellaneous". It means the entry is useless or not very understandable. And IMHO every category that potentially can host less than 10 programs (available worldwide, not the program we already have in the suite) can be deleted.
11 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

scentse
scentse
Posts: 26
Gianluca wrote:
A spreadsheet is a perfect way to manage the categories and I like old/new columns.
Then I can replace the new category in SPS Builder.


All 255 old categories are recorded.
Updating the nomenclature is bit more difficult without super categories.

The suggestion by @sl23 of using single word categories is a noble pursuit to keep things clean.
Implementing a super category could potentially be beneficial in that respect.

Even if they are not used, I'll include add an additional column for super categories.

edited by scentse on 15/02/2024
12 days ago
Topic:
Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?

scentse
scentse
Posts: 26
Gianluca wrote:

...Try to read this posts and if you like let me know what do you think...


Let me preface my commentary by stating,
"I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice."
(It's actually illegal in the US to do so)


PA POSTS

It seems the guy over at PortableApps is upset about how a maintainer has forked their product.

In the US, federal law applies to all 50 states.
There is a federal law known as Section 230.
Basically, it states that a service is not liable for the posts of its users.
But if a valid take-down request is made, the service must take down the post.
If there are some programs (posts) by a maintainer (forum user) which are in violation, the onus would be on the developer to request a take-down.
If the entry is made again, the developer would have to request a separate take-down for that "post".
Think P2P sites.

Next issue to unpack here is the whether forking the PA product actually violates their licensing agreement.
I'm unfamiliar with the licensing provisions in OSS, but forks in OSS are common.

There's also some nonsense about "repackaging".
But if the package is forked, it's a different product altogether. That's not "repackaging".

It seems like the admin's gripe mainly surrounds the removal of their splash screen.
Unsure if doing this violates anything.

If it does, then it might make sense to leave their splash screen.
Particularly if it will fix the "corruption" dialog.


Even if you were to charge a fee for accessing the SyMenu database; you'd be charging for that service, rather than the programs themselves.


VISIBILITY POST
Yes, adding SyMenu into a Wikipedia page could potentially help somewhat, however not in a massive way.
How to successfully launch a PR blitz is truthfully beyond my expertise.
Generally, I've noticed that when the big tech firms want additional visibility for products, they rebrand.
Same for B&M stores with "Grand (re-)Openings".
But it always requires the coinciding exposure provided by media (articles & "influencers").

Hiring a PR firm costs money.

I won't even venture a guess, but it's expensive.
Furthermore, that guarantees nothing AFA traction is concerned.

The term SyMenu conveys is that it's some sort a menu utility.
When in reality, it is a much more robust offering than a simple menu (format, maintained repository, automatic updates, cloud sync between devices,etc.)
Finding SyMenu's identifiable caterings would help with branding efforts.

Furthermore, the website ugmfree has zero relation to the program name SyMenu.

The .it domain is also unfamiliar to many web users.
This may be a major point of confusion
Google Search will always prioritize the main (.com, .net) domains for web searches in English.
This may be de-prioritizing SyMenu in search results.


Truthfully, there's no simple answer that guarantees the desired outcome.
Companies go out of business paying for advertising that doesn't translate into sales.
...

edited by scentse on 14/02/2024
14 days ago
Topic:
Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?

sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
I see your point re update management. Perhaps the way you have it is actually the best way of doing it?!

That was in my mind when I got the refusal from dev's, why do they not want to help promote their software? Very strange!

I expect you've done something similar, but have you tried asking on forums such as PortableFreeware et al?

Well, the suggestion to make it Payware was in fact a way of covering your time and effort. It doesn't matter what we as users pay for as long as you are getting something back. As a user, if you charged for SyMenu itself, I would purchase the Current/Next major build but app updates are free. If you charge for the update service, it becomes almost a subscription, one way or another, and that works in the fairest way I think. Because then Users get SyMenu free, can do what they want with the SPS system to install own apps etc, then can pay you for updating, if they choose to. The only downside? Subscription type charges tend to put people off. Go look at Akai unofficial MPC forum and search for subscription. One guy suggested it and every other user was against it!
14 days ago
Topic:
Custom apps folder?

sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
sl23
sl23
Posts: 264
Topic: Custom apps folder?
Ah ok, missed that!
15 days ago
Topic:
Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?
A lot of considerations and ideas are starting to flow here.
Thanks guys.
@sl23 as you correctly say, I automated a lot of the checking process for SPS so it's not a big burden to check everything.
The real burden would be to discern among what needs to be checked daily and what probably needs to be checked less often, i.e. to manage the SPS in two different ways.
The only different process I apply today is for abandonware that is no longer checked at all.
But the real problem here is not the apps that me and the other editors have to check. It's the apps we can't include in the suite for lacking resources.
As I already said, SPS is a very powerful technology and we can reach 5.000 with no problem. And beyond this number it's SyMenu that would have difficulty managing the items, not the SPS itself.
The problem is to spread the SPS wings for real.

@sl23 wrote:
I really do find it strange that so many Developers of software aren't interested in adding a simple update to an SPS


The strangest thing is that they don't understand that adding their own apps to SyMenu is not a help for SyMenu but it's for themselves.
The apps included on the SyMenu suite have a larger audience and an automatic update system that the majority of freeware software don't have.
scentse wrote:
I hadn't realized .sps was open. Sort of nullifies my thoughts that you were wanting to perhaps license or sell the format.

I want to be able to feed SPS as it deserves, to expand the project, to grow.
Today I'm stuck because of a lack of resources, mainly time and people, to devote to the project. And if I need to convert SyMenu into a payware app as @sl23 suggested, to move on, I'll do it.
SPS is open and stays open. If someone wants to use it for a different project he can do it.
If anything will ever be sold here it'll be the service I'm dispensing with my time, with the SyMenu ecosystem, with the project reliability and continuity.

@scentse thank you for your thoughts regarding the lack of traction SyMenu has. You are perfectly right.
Differently from chocolatey or PortableApps, SyMenu has never been well perceived outside its own community and the reason for this it's a mystery I've never solved.
Try to read this posts and if you like let me know what do you think
https://www.ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=818
https://portableapps.com/comment/252017#comment-252017
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105572
15 days ago
Topic:
Cleaning up the program categories

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: Cleaning up the program categories
scentse wrote:
I'd started a spreadsheet with the current categories in one column with the proposed new category name in another column. Before continuing the process, I wanted to ensure this was an adequate manner to conduct the process.

A spreadsheet is a perfect way to manage the categories and I like old/new columns.
When it is ready you can copy and paste everything on a message in this thread so we can share with anybody else interested.
Then I can replace the new category in SPS Builder.
15 days ago
Topic:
A new approach to the installation of apps

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: A new approach to the installation of apps
sl23 wrote:
My only criticism is the colour of the blue, it blends with the tick too much

You're right. It'll be changed in the final release.

sl23 wrote:
[tooltip for combining links and descriptions] Another option would be to have a clickable icon to the left...

Well it could be but before I have to test it and see it. Sometimes I have a stroke of genius and when I implemented it shows as a bunch of crap. Other times a bad idea reveals to be very practical and comprehensible...
15 days ago
Topic:
Custom apps folder?

Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Gianluca
Gianluca
Administrator
Posts: 1191
Topic: Custom apps folder?
The point is not to have the SPSFolder as a parent but to have an exclusive folder where SyMenu can manage the SPS Apps.
To be clear, theoretically I can define D:\SPS as the home SPS folder. But what Frank asked for was to mix his own apps with the SPS apps in the same folder. And it's impossible.
The SPS home folder must be managed by SyMenu exclusively.
16 days ago
Topic:
Who (the hell) are the SyMenu users?

scentse
scentse
Posts: 26
Gianluca wrote:


2002!...

...What I think is the problem is not my approach to openness, it's about the requirements I ask to the collaborators that are probably too pretentious...

...And I ask all of this for free, because the project is entirely freeware. And probably this is its worst weakness or, at least, the real reason I can't expand it as I would because of the lack of resources...

...The problem on the editing side it's not about the place where the SPS are published but the persons that collaborate to publish them.

The editors are strongly committed, really expert on it, but very few. And GitHub is not a collaborators multiplicator.


Wow, incredible commitment.

You clearly understand it's a complex issue.
I hadn't realized .sps was open.
Sort of nullifies my thoughts that you were wanting to perhaps license or sell the format.


Surely everyone recalls Steve Balmer's DEVELOPERS^3 moment.
MAINTAINERS^3 applies just as well here.

Point being, even a company like Microsoft - with massive financials - still requires 3rd parties to invest in their platform.

Sort of insane that this project has been around since 2002, and yet chocolately had achieved more momentum in the space despite lacking a GUI.
There was a massive media blitz surrounding chocolatey when it released, the niche being its similarity to linux package management. Same goes for winget.

But I think most Windows user prefer to stay in the GUI, so its sort of lost on the majority.

While cloud synchronization between devices was a non-factor in 2002, much is different now.
As previously mentioned, I think the big niche for SyMenu is its ability to sync across devices, regardless of cloud provider.

I would try to lean into that branding & association as much as possible.


As you're well aware, developers of their own software actually build, and maintain their releases for the chocolatey platform.
I'm unaware how to go about incentivizing devs to actually build and maintain their releases on SyMenu, short of straight up paying them.

Same goes for press coverage.

But like chocolatey, once a big projects signs on, or articles are mass disseminated, more projects seem to follow suit.

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