SyMenu - New SyMenu releases - SyMenu beta 8.00 - Messages

Message from Gianluca

Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:04:17 GMT

Well I'm working on the glitches but finally there is some good news: the .NET Core 8 has been released so the SyMenu version I've just published is built on a final (LTS) framework. This means I finally
have a stable platform to work with.

I imagine a lot of the glitches you are experiencing have not been fixed by a simple framework change but at least from now on every fix I'll do will be stably fixed.

IMHO the only option stored in the SyMenuConfig.zip that can change something with visualization is the DPIUnware="False" /> that corresponds to the checkbox "Check this for issues on HD monitors" in Options - General. Every other element doesn't impact the form visualization. The change you've experienced is probably originating from some other reasons.

Message from scentse

Sat, 18 Nov 2023 18:13:27 GMT

Several of the UI elements reverted back after a few days.
Deleting SyMenuConfig.zip, relaunching, & running the wizard temporary resolves it.
But once the program is closed & restarted, the UI elements revert back to displaying incorrectly.

I copied a "clean" SyMenuConfig.zip before closing the program.
I then readded the "clean" Config back before relaunching.
But the problem remains.

Either some setting isn't being properly retained/respected or something is being rewritten on program launch.
Unaware of dependencies, but the only a few things change in the config .xml.

1. startMenuLocations add in host and x,y coordinates.
2. icons are populated

https://i.imgur.com/uA2gCnw.jpeg

Message from scentse

Wed, 08 Nov 2023 17:19:55 GMT

THANKS

2023.11.08 - v.8.00.8712 (.NET Core 8)

Wow. Looks Great. Nearly there.

Initially I didn't see any changes. The sizing was identical to the previous beta.
Seems due to SyMenuConfig.zip

When using the Config from the previous beta, several elements continue to display incorrectly.

Deletion of the config, prompts the creation wizard for a new one upon the next launch.

The newly created Config functions as intended, with elements displaying correctly.

Fortunately it appears SyMenuItem.zip can be carried over just fine.

Item Manager

Title Bar text remains cutoff
Icons & hit-boxes remain small

Configuration

Save & Exit text is cutoff

SyMenu Options
General

Text-entry field is cutoff on bottom edge.

Menu

Text-entry fields are cutoff on bottom edge.
Tooltip Selection entry is outside the visible window

Theme

Text-entry fields are cutoff on the right edge
"Show-shadow" text is cutoff
Checkbox entry is outside the visible window at bottom of list
The preview graphic is displaying elements incorrectly

ALL

The x & - buttons in the title bars for all Windows remain small.

Message from Gianluca

Fri, 13 Oct 2023 19:00:51 GMT

There's a reason for this: I found a machine with the graphical issues you reported and I've been able to fix them one by one.
Anyway I don't completely agree with you because some objects are still broken (for example the font inside textbox and listbox doesn't scale correctly yet and remains too small) but we are on the right path now.

Thank you for your help, it was fundamental.

Message from scentse

Fri, 13 Oct 2023 18:27:41 GMT

HUGE IMPROVEMENT on this new build!!!!!!!

(2023.10.13 - v.8.00.8686)
Zero glitches on the virtual resizing.

With the regular DPI scaling:

ITEM MANAGER
>Any critical UI elements which were previously invisible are now visible (i.e. "Apply All", checkboxes next to Status column)
>Grid/Table is displaying properly, even when resizing.
>Free Space bar graph is displaying correctly.
>Certain elements remain small, but functional:

Titlebar (titlebar element itself?, as the text remains large but x/- buttons are small)
Icons, but their hitboxes now match the icon size.
SyMenu/Nirsoft Suite tabs
Search field
Program information text is small (exception are the hyperlinks and VirusTotal icons) - **this is an improvement**

CONFIGURATION
>Tree is displaying correctly.
>Checkboxes are displaying correctly.
>Many elements remain small, but functional
>Save and Exit button has text cutoff

OPTIONS
>Checkboxes are displaying correctly.
>Most corresponding text fields are displaying properly
>Some corresponding text fields are cutoff.

Regular DPI Scaling Screenshot

Virtual Resizing Screenshot

edited by scentse on 13/10/2023

Message from Gianluca

Wed, 04 Oct 2023 16:47:55 GMT

My hope is that virtual resizing will soon be useless because Windows will start to do its job better and better. So I would not include the option in the initial wizard.
Plus, at the initial wizard you still don't know if you need the option or not. The glitches start to appear when you load the most complex forms not in the wizard.

Again... the virtual rendering shouldn't have any problem because Windows renders the forms with default DPI (96) in a sort of sandbox, then it zooms the image for the user screen (this is the reason for the blurring)... so where do those glitches come from???? Probably it's again the bad GPU management that Windows does in the sandbox phase too...
Well I never saw such a large unreliability from Windows.. What were they thinking about when they implemented it?

Anyway I'm happy to hear that the new option can be decisive for the 8 adoption.

Message from scentse

Wed, 04 Oct 2023 16:32:37 GMT

Gianluca wrote:

Well if the situation is as you describe, SyMenu is not alone in this mess. I hope MS can fix this behaviour soon because I can do nothing.

I knew this wasn't entirely accurate...

Unaware how much code you had to write, but I agree your solution is far more elegant.

The "virtual resizing" toggle improves many of the graphical glitches. (text isn't blurry at all. Just a little soft)

icons now match hitbox size
most text fields are no longer cutoff'
structure menu in options is displaying correctly
window title bars are no longer cutoff

Other non-critical glitches remain

checkboxes still overlay their corresponding text
top category/sort row is still cutoff in Item Manager
Virustotal/License Information is still cutoff in Item Manager

However... the text for the toggle itself is cutoff. So if a user doesn't know what they're looking at, it's unlikely that they would enable it.
Would it be possible to somehow incorporate the "Virtual Resizing" toggle into the initial configuration and/or post-upgrade experience?
Furthermore, enabling the toggle requires the program be restarted. Can that be automated? Or is an informative popup preferable?
e.g. "the program needs to be restarted for this to take effect".

That said - With this option, I would have zero apprehension about upgrading to 8.

edited by scentse on 04/10/2023

Message from Gianluca

Wed, 04 Oct 2023 12:55:48 GMT

I don't like at all the perspective of having two different branches so I created a beta version (8.00.8677) with a new option to choose how the OS resizes syMenu.

Normally the resizing is the one we learnt could have some graphical issues but, going to Options - General, you can choose to go back to the virtual resizing. In this case the graphical result is not so clear, the fonts are quite blurred and the lines are not so sharp, but you are sure Windows does a perfect job and every command is perfectly visible.

I hope this can help to overcome every doubt that could prevent a user from updating to the new 8.

Message from scentse

Tue, 03 Oct 2023 20:10:04 GMT

Understandable.
Will you be able to get enough testing configurations with 8 tucked away in this thread though?
A beta link on the homepage might solicit additional installs/feedback...

Message from Gianluca

Tue, 03 Oct 2023 19:49:53 GMT

At certain point I'll force the update from 7 to 8, because it is not feasible for me to maintain the two branches forever.

But naturally, as an end user, it will be possible to refuse the automatic update and stay with the 7 even if the things will probably start to fail.
Anyway I hope in some sort of MS fix sooner or later.

Message from scentse

Tue, 03 Oct 2023 19:42:00 GMT

If the backend dependencies will remain functional, then I suspect leaving the 7.xx branch for unsupported configurations is the way forward.
Probably not what you had in mind after dedicating so much time when porting over to .NET 8.
As you rightly highlight: At some point, Microsoft may identify the issue & patch.

And of course, this could be a very limited aberration - the AMD GPU w/ the Intel CPU.

AMD onboard graphics might be fine.
Intel onboard graphics might be fine.
AMD GPUs w/ AMD CPUS might be fine.
Nvidia GPUs w/ AMD CPUs might be fine.
Nvidia GPUs w/ Intel CPUs might be fine.

More tested configurations are truly required to ascertain how many machines are impacted.

Given the unknowns, I'd be weary of updating 7.xx installs to 8.xx.

Perhaps the 8.xx is better for new installs??

Message from Gianluca

Tue, 03 Oct 2023 18:12:17 GMT

Thank you for the MS source but the interaction with the low level drawing devices it's on the .NET Core framework.
I only use the high level graphical components the framework supplies.
Sometimes I have to draw something with a so-called unmanaged code that is a simple Windows API call. But even with this technique I can't change the drawing stack that, in this case, it's on Windows OS.
Probably I could draw everything with unmanaged code explicitly using the Direct2D libraries and methods you refer to but it's not the way the software is developed nowdays.

Anyway this is a really interesting thread, I'm learning a lot thanks to you. Feel free to contact me in private if you want a deeper view of the SyMenu project.

BTW the SyMenu database is perfectly interoperable among 7 and 8. It means you could even downgrade to 7 if you like. Naturally in this case you will lose all the customization introduced with 8 but it's not a big issue IMHO.

Message from scentse

Tue, 03 Oct 2023 16:18:00 GMT

A shared mess indeed. I previously encountered this problem with Autodesk's AutoCAD.
Windows wouldn't respect the Nvidia GPU setting because the older laptop's monitor was only connected to the onboard graphics.
Newer laptops branch this connection.

What I suspect has happened is that Microsoft changed the Windows graphics stack to force all rendering output to the "3D engine" where the monitor is connected.
Plugged into the motherboard, rendering occurs on the processor.
Plugged into the PCIe card, rendering occurs the GPU.

Certain GPU engine settings are respected by Windows. For instance VLC.
Windows will delegate certain tasks to the "Video Decode engine" on the user-selected graphics, but the rendering output is handled by the "3D engine" where the monitor is connected to.

Were you planning on introducing additional features into the 8.xx release which would break something in 7.xx?

Or could both versions remain interoperable with the database?

EDIT:
While lacking knowledge of how to write code, I understand some base concepts.
Perhaps this documentation might illuminate,

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/learnwin32/render-targets--devices--and-resources

edited by scentse on 03/10/2023

Message from Gianluca

Tue, 03 Oct 2023 13:05:15 GMT

Well if the situation is as you describe, SyMenu is not alone in this mess. I hope MS can fix this behaviour soon because I can do nothing.

Message from scentse

Sat, 30 Sep 2023 16:29:14 GMT

Various compatibility overrides make some improvements, but far from the intended output with several cutoff areas remaining.
Furthermore, the overrides introduce major artifacts when resizing the window.

I would not hold out hopes on Microsoft resolving the issue.
Per-application settings for iGPU vs dGPU were once handled via the GPU driver/software for both Nvidia & AMD.

Back in the 20H2 update, Microsoft usurped control of per-application settings. Their implementation of the feature is a mess.
So many issues with Windows not recognizing a GPU. Or recognizing a GPU, but disallowing selection of a GPU for per-application settings.

In this specific instance, Windows is recognizing both GPUs and allowing the setting for SyMenu to use the iGPU.
BUT, it is not respecting the setting.

When viewing the Performance Resource graphs, the dGPU spikes when selecting and moving the SyMenu window.
When the SyMenu window stops moving, the dGPU values return to 1%.
The iGPU remains at a static 0% throughout.

On the older HP tower, the Intel processor is an F variant (no iGPU on the processor).
This was an office PC, way before HDMI 2.0 was even available on motherboards.
Hence the need for a dGPU to enable 4K output.

The more configurations testing the 8.xx release will surely reveal more.

Message from Gianluca

Sat, 30 Sep 2023 12:05:15 GMT

Great test and good assumption.

The scaling is on the .NET Core framework and I don't know if it uses the OS or GPU features but, according to what you discovered, I guess the second one, if a GPU is available.
All my tests take place on office PCs (I'm not a gaming guy) so I have never tested SyMenu on a dedicated graphic board.
Anyway I think it's a thing bigger than us. Let's see if some Windows updates fix the problem.
In the meanwhile, if you want, you could do some tests with the execution properties of the SyMenu executable. Among them, in the Compatibility tab, there are some settings that maybe can fix the problem (High DPI scaling override for example). If some of your tests solve the issue, totally or partially, I can put the workaround in the manual.

Message from scentse

Fri, 29 Sep 2023 21:32:18 GMT

Using default 150% Scaling.
Tried at 125%, same issues.

Unaware if the scaling logic is performed via the OS or on the GPU??
On AMD's most recent stable driver w/ the 23H2 update enabled.

EDIT:

I tried disabling/enabling GPU Scaling in the AMD Radeon SW. Made no difference.
Tried uninstalling the SW/driver. Made no difference.

Just tested on a VMWare VM 11 23H2, 150% scaling. Zero problems. VM using the VMWare Tools graphics driver.

The issues are also present on a another HP tower with different chipset AMD dGPU at 200% scaling.
Both HP towers are using Intel processors w/ AMD GPUs. (i5-12400, RX5500 & i5-8400, RX550

Perhaps this might be an issue with the AMD GPU, differing instruction sets form Intel/AMD, or something to do with HP's hidden BIOS settings (only the most basic toggles are visible).

edited by scentse on 29/09/2023

Message from Gianluca

Fri, 29 Sep 2023 19:49:56 GMT

Me too I tested at 125%, 150%, and 175% with no issues.
I have a question for you scentse.
When you set the zoom to 150% did you use the Windows dropdown selector or you set a custom scaling at 150%?
Strange enough it seems to me that Windows behaves in different ways when you go with the suggested scaling respect to a custom one, even if you choose the exact same values as the suggested ones...

Message from lupusbalo

Fri, 29 Sep 2023 17:21:48 GMT

Suprisingly I see none of the problems that Scente posted

I'm running Symenu 8.0.8658 on W10, with a 4K screen at 125%

[EDIT] Just tried at 150% with same results

edited by lupusbalo on 29/09/2023

Message from scentse

Fri, 29 Sep 2023 16:21:42 GMT

ITEM MANAGER

The program information elements are now cutoff. Only way to install SW is by right-click in the program lost
Hitboxes now match icon size. However the icons remain tiny. They do don't appear to be respecting Window's scaling settings.
Title bar is now cutting off more text than before.
The sort row for list of programs is now cut off
Free space bar is cut off.

CONFIGURATION MENU

Free Space bar is cut off.
Save & Exit Button is cut off.
Certain checkboxes are overlaying the text fields.

OPTIONS MENU

Checkboxes are partially overlayed on the text fields
Graphical assets
Textboxes are cut off

Message from Gianluca

Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:41:10 GMT

Dear scentse,
Let me know if the new version fixes the Options - Structure glitch please.
The other problems are probably gone now.

edited by Gianluca on 29/09/2023

Message from lupusbalo

Sun, 24 Sep 2023 19:30:28 GMT

OK thks
I'll give it a try

Message from Gianluca

Sun, 24 Sep 2023 18:12:23 GMT

From 7 to 8!
Yes you can do that even if the import is a sort of manual operation and can create a lot of noise. You risk having hundreds of executables to choose among.
I think that if your program collection is not so large you can proceed with manual import (go to the folder and drag the executable to SyMenu).

Message from lupusbalo

Sun, 24 Sep 2023 14:57:14 GMT

I'm currently testing it

Already installed roughly 200 progs (no problem so far )
but as I use extensively V7.. I have still many more to install

Question:
I have a bunch of portable apps in an "other portable apps" folder in the 7... installation

May I just copy this folder from 7.. to 9.. then import programs??
Thanks

Message from scentse

Mon, 18 Sep 2023 19:57:08 GMT

O sure, functionality is great.

Even the settings and configuration folders were copied over & retained.
The only folder which I didn't copy over was the 'Lib' folder for obvious reasons.

Text is certainly sharper than in 7.0.

But you'll notice with the icons in the Item Manager, some of them only take up the upper left quadrant of the hitbox.

Also previously unmentioned are some issues with the title bar.
The text on the title bar is too large and gets cutoff.
But the title bar elements (Maximize,Minimize Close) are too small & have tiny hitboxes.

Graphical elements aside, seems stable enough.
I'll begin using the 8.0 release going forward...

Many thanks!!

edited by scentse on 18/09/2023

Message from Gianluca

Mon, 18 Sep 2023 08:19:17 GMT

Thank you for your report.
I'm very happy there is someone who's testing SyMenu 8.0 on a 4K display because the scaling problems on different screen resolution and zoom settings are the main reason for which I'm delaying the release of the 8.00 version so much.
Anyway I'm a bit relieved to notice the problems do not harm too much the SyMenu use but I'll do my best to solve these glitches too.

Message from scentse

Sat, 16 Sep 2023 20:48:35 GMT

.NET 8.0 RC was released two days ago.
Will switch over to the beta now.

EDIT:
v.8.00.8658
Still a few graphical glitches.

Icons are too small/not scaling correctly.
Window contents jitter when resizing window.
Fields are cutoff when the number of rows exceeds the amount of space in a fixed size element. On Programs without Virustotal Information, the text is displayed correctly. But fields are cut off when displaying programs with Virustotal data. Issue also present in Options.

Machine Specs
4K display at 150% scaling
.NET 8.0
Windows 11 22H2

edited by scentse on 16/09/2023

Message from Gianluca

Sun, 06 Mar 2022 19:45:26 GMT

Hello.

What's happening here? Why an 8 version?

Well this release is a sort of milestone for SyMenu.

Since the SyMenu first version the only requirement for the host PC was to have the .NET framework 2.0 or higher installed.
This version has been heavily rewritten to implement the new .NET 7 framework that allows to include in the SyMenu package the entire framework. This way SyMenu can be executed with no prerequisites at all because all the needed libraries are already included.

This means full portability for SyMenu.

There are two cons with this approach.
1) The program size has increased a lot. This version weighs almost 70MB while the stable version weighs only 4MB.
2) The modern .NET frameworks abandoned the support for the oldest Windows OS (bye bye XP and Vista). The oldest supported OS is Win 7 SP1 and SyMenu will be forced to do the same.

PLEASE BE CAREFUL
We are finally out from the alpha testing. A beta version is available since October 2022 and it means it could be used in a more extended way.
Anyway I can't assure, at this point of development, SyMenu is fully working, nor that your configuration files will be preserved with the next version, I can't assure the automatic update will be able to update this version in the future... So please don't use this version as your main one. Any help for testing will be welcome but don't do stupid things with it.

Enjoy.

2023.05.28 - v.8.00.8548 (.NET Core 8)
2023.06.06 - v.8.00.8557 (.NET Core 8)
2023.07.19 - v.8.00.8600 (.NET Core 8)
2023.07.21 - v.8.00.8602 (.NET Core 8)
2023.07.21 - v.8.00.8616 (.NET Core 8)
2023.08.11 - v.8.00.8623 (.NET Core 8)
2023.09.15 - v.8.00.8658 (.NET Core 8)
2023.09.15 - v.8.00.8672 (.NET Core 8)
2023.10.04 - v.8.00.8677 (.NET Core 8)
2023.10.13 - v.8.00.8686 (.NET Core 8)
2023.11.08 - v.8.00.8712 (.NET Core 8)
2023.11.08 - v.8.00.8723 (.NET Core 8)
https://onedrive.live.com/download?resid=D06528ECD5C93C26%21563&authkey=!ALysxsY6dHn6988

Here you can download a compatible version of the SyMenu plugin OpenFolder
2022.06.09 - v.0.9.0.0
https://onedrive.live.com/download?cid=D06528ECD5C93C26&resid=D06528ECD5C93C26%21214&authkey=AMg192GAC9nahjo

edited by Gianluca on 19/11/2023