SyMenu - General discussion & questions - Request feature for "Get new apps SPS" window - Messages

Message from Gianluca

Sat, 13 Feb 2016 11:27:21 GMT

@sl23
Good idea. I'll put it on the TODO list

@VVV_Easy_Symenu
Thanks to your ispiration the different icons for new and updated will be available on the next version. I'm working on that exactly now.

Message from VVV_Easy_Symenu

Sat, 13 Feb 2016 10:19:50 GMT

I modified the script (now, version 2) with the indications of Gian and contemplating the empty Trash situation.

Note: Gian thank you very much for your compliments. I really do not know very much VB even I have not compiler for make a dll for a plugin. I'm a programmer of the time of C ++ (not Visual Windows, of course) and the Z80 assembly !
edited by VVV_Easy_Symenu on 13/02/2016

Message from sl23

Fri, 12 Feb 2016 19:55:04 GMT

Remove the button - Report a broken SPS - and make SPS reviewer clickable to report problems/updates.

Message from Gianluca

Wed, 10 Feb 2016 08:43:48 GMT

I'm really impressed...
Why don't you think to create a plugin for SyMenu? You could include the logic from your script in a more consistent way for example inside a form. You could list the app with their icons and real names too and, if useful, metadata.
Anyway great work.

There are some little issues.
In SyMenu the 10 days range are considered as <= 10 and not < 10. Yes with this rule they becomes 11 and not 10... my fault.
The placeholder date file should be excluded from the final list. It's recognizable because its name ends up for "sps.zip.date" or because it's the only file with a 0 byte size.

As I expeted if you check two times for new sps you loose the information for new SPS in the Trash mode because the second trashed folder already contains all the new files. But it's impossible to workaround that with the current architecture.

Your second approach is more interesting.
Checking the file physical creation date instead of the modified date you have a further information that, incredibly, remains consistent.
I checked an SPS file and it preserves the correct creation date even if it's deleted and modified every time you use the SPS Builder to change something in it. It's counter intuitive but in fact it works. Windows sorceries...
I have to go deep in this but if it is reliable the direct implementation in SyMenu becomes possible.

I told you before... "Unless someone's stroke of genius"

Message from VVV_Easy_Symenu

Tue, 09 Feb 2016 22:34:08 GMT

I made a little messy VBScript, without any guarantee, to show the "age" of the SPS app.
It has two operating modes "Trash folder" or "Creation Date":

0 Tabulations -> Not updates Apps (File DateLastModified out of the last 10 days)
6 Tabulations -> Updated Apps (File DateLastModified in the last 10 days).
10 Tabulations -> New Apps (File updated but not in _Trash folder or created in the last 10 days)

I hope it have some utility for someone. You can modify as you want.
Note: Perhaps the File Creation Date may be a good substitute for the SPS creation date and the today null file "20160209.sps.zip.date" could be the dates cache file for a filter buttons "Red New" and "Blue New" .

Edito: Script version V1 removed. New version down.
edited by VVV_Easy_Symenu on 13/02/2016

Message from sl23

Tue, 09 Feb 2016 13:43:41 GMT

OK understood, too much work for such a simple change, not worth it. If you plan on implementing the App Store idea then add it with that, that seems more practical.

Sometimes it's difficult to understand why ideas shouldn't or can't be added when you're not a programmer.

Message from Gianluca

Tue, 09 Feb 2016 08:09:05 GMT

An SPS is new if the modified date of the SPS physical file is within the 10 days.

In my opinion we can turn around the problem in whatever way but the problem is only one: every historical or statistical information about an SPS can't be included in the file itself, because it's by its nature an external data. The SPS is a way to only install and manage your program, not to create historical and statistical data.

When I read the file last modified date to give the user this "new" information I'm already stretching a lot the SPS nature. Do you want to know my thought? Doing this thing is wrong because infers an information on an accidental and different element.

As we - me and sl23 - already talked about, we can imagine a lot of services tied to the SPS historical, statistical, or grouped data: the number of weekly/monthly download for every program, the stars and the reviews from the users, suggestions about similar programs, about programs installed by users that already have installed a certain program, and so on. You can imagine that all the information available in any smartphone app store could be offered for desktop apps. It would be a revolution! Naturally the information about a totally new SPS or an updated SPS could be easily included.

Why am I speaking with hypothetical sentences?
Because the effort to transform the current SPS architecture this way is over my current possibilities.
I should rethink everything from SyMenu, to the SPS Manager and Builder, to the web site. I estimate an activity of 6/8 months, full time, to create all of this and unfortunately I can do it.

All this talk to justify my sensation about the new/update overlay.
In my opinion we can't entirely solve the problem with the current architecture and the effort to change the current architecture only to give the user a different overlay for the two SPS condition is too much. Unless someone's stroke of genius

Message from sl23

Mon, 08 Feb 2016 19:42:51 GMT

Would it be possible to write inside the sps file if that data doesn't exist?

How exactly does the SPS Manager currently determine if an sps file is new?

Another possibility: How about a plain text file listing all apps and current version and/or date for the SPS Manager to check?
edited by sl23 on 08/02/2016

Message from Gianluca

Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:56:55 GMT

Maybe the solution to write the creation date inside the SPS is the most consistent one. Unfortunately we already have a large SPS library that remains without a creation date so this solution is useless.

Considering the current condition, the solution to check inside the trash is the most effective because it immediately covers all the programs but it is extremely buggy.
Think about this scenario: the partially emptied trash is not a solution because if you check again for new SPS tomorrow and again empty your trash you'll have a red overlay that becomes blue because the item yesterday didn't exist, today exists (so it assumes the red overlay) but tomorrow it becomes blue because you check again the SPS and you'll find an old SPS.
Quite confusing....

Message from sl23

Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:13:24 GMT

Yep, that sounds good plan

Message from VVV_Easy_Symenu

Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:43:03 GMT

I would like to explain easier with the sequence:

the user presses the button SPS Update
SyMenu makes the _Trash backup
SyMenu download the new SPS files in _Cache
SyMenu looks the updated apps -> Red icon
SyMenu looks if the sps file is in "SyMenuSuite\_Trash\20160206-06.37.56.sps.bak" folder: If NOT -> Blue icon / if YES remains Red.
SyMenu returns the focus to user.

The only inconvenient is that the icon is set each time the list is displayed, then emptying trash makes all apps new blue.
Solution: Change the behaviour "emptying the trash" always leaving the last backup SPS? -> More lost of performance.
Perhaps the only real good solution is to write the date of creation (first upload?) of the SPS app in the SPS file: If the date the creation is equal ( ten days) of the file date the Blue icon.

Message from Gianluca

Sun, 07 Feb 2016 18:11:06 GMT

Probably it could be arranged in that way but you haven't the same a safe method to get this information.
What if you empty the trash?
Moreover if you regularly check for the new SPS with your second check, a previous totally new SPS will results as an updated one.
I should implement a more grained method to understand the whole history of an SPS going back with previous SPS backup but I can't read every backup folder and I can't open all the old SPS to rebuild the entire version history.
Well, indeed I can do it but it will result in a lost of performance. Even the simple check for an unique backup folder is a performance enemy.

Currently the new icon remains for 10 days since the last publication.

Message from sl23

Sun, 07 Feb 2016 12:45:09 GMT

Gianluca wrote:

So you are speaking about SPS installed on your local PC....

No! Not so important. In fact, seems completely pointless in light of my reason for doing so!

Gianluca wrote:

I understood you need to know if an SPS non installed was totally new or only updated.

Yes! Basically so we can see what apps have been added since last check. Currently, looking through the list of apps, there must be around a hundred NEW apps! Except they're not new, they're updates, or most are. The remaining apps are new to SyMenu, ie have only just been added. We need to differentiate between NEW and UPDATED apps.

Ideally, you open SPS Manager, click Get new apps SPS, see what updates are available and see what NEW apps are available. Wouldn't VVV_Easy_Symenu's suggestion of checking the previous SPS list work?

Incidentally, how long does this NEW overlay stay on any specific app?

edited by sl23 on 07/02/2016

Message from Gianluca

Sun, 07 Feb 2016 10:49:43 GMT

So you are speaking about SPS installed on your local PC.... I understood you need to know if an SPS non installed was totally new or only updated.
Changing the red icon for SPS already installed is quite easy because I already know if an SPS is available for update (last grid column) and if it is new (red icon). I only need to cross the information, but I can't understand what the real utility of this feature is. Maybe I have make the update information more evident?

Message from sl23

Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:05:48 GMT

edited by sl23 on 06/02/2016

Message from VVV_Easy_Symenu

Sat, 06 Feb 2016 09:44:11 GMT

Perhaps you can verify if there is an older version in _Trash\*.sps.bak folder.

Message from sl23

Fri, 05 Feb 2016 11:03:06 GMT

OK thanks. Isn't there any way it could check to see if the appname_sps folder exists or something?
edited by sl23 on 05/02/2016

Message from Gianluca

Fri, 05 Feb 2016 08:27:29 GMT

I don't understand.
The new and updated status is related to your installed programs or to the SPS at all?

If you intend to point out when an SPS already exists and it has been just updated changing its version, sorry but it is not possible.
The NEW icon depends on the SPS file physical date as VVV_Easy_Symenu discovered and it is not an internal SPS attribute. So I can't recognize if a new SPS is really new or it is a new version that replaced an old one.

Message from sl23

Fri, 05 Feb 2016 00:04:08 GMT

Could you please change the NEW overlay icon to blue for updated apps and keep red for newly added apps?

Message from sl23

Mon, 01 Feb 2016 19:33:58 GMT

OK thanks Gian

Message from Gianluca

Mon, 01 Feb 2016 18:41:53 GMT

Yes it should disappear.
In the next version I'll try to solve this problem, plus I will implement a new feature to make the big floating icon hides when you click a little minimize button I add to its surface.
So you can make it disappear even without opening the configuration or SPS or options form. It is useful when you watch something in full screen mode for example.

Message from sl23

Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:13:12 GMT

Ah OK, but my context menu does not disappear on opening config or manager, should it? Because it is interfering with other windows due to always on top.

Message from Gianluca

Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:16:51 GMT

Sorry but this forum is exploding... I hardly succed to give clear reply to all
Configuration form and SPS Manager are dangerous to each other because both of them can alter the item configuration. Consequently they can't be active at the same time.
Contextual menu and configuration, contextual menu and SPS Manager can be both active because contextual menu can't alter the item configuration. I have to leave the contextual menu active. Today it is partially active because the floating menu disappears when you open the configuration or the SPS Manager.

Message from sl23

Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:48:36 GMT

Not really sure what you're trying to say there Gian?!

Message from Gianluca

Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:04:54 GMT

The menu is not dangerous as the configuration form because it is always in read only mode. I think that I should solve this discrepancy not hiding it at all.

Message from sl23

Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:58:10 GMT

Understood. That's exactly the reason I thought it might be. I do find it a bit of an annoyance when the config or manager windows are open the menu doesn't hide, and I imagine if you chose to hide, it won't be shown. I often wished for interaction with menu whilst windows are open. Didn't this used to be the case?

Message from Gianluca

Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:25:15 GMT

Not at all. It's a simple choice. When you open a new Window you can define if it must be modal or not i.e. if the parent has to be locked or not.

I choose to lock the configuration form when you open SPS manager to avoid inconsistent actions.
For example you can delete an SPS from the configuration and try to update it from the SPS.
Or you can add a new app from the SPS Manager while you are saving the tree in the configuration.
Who is the winning?

With the windows both enabled you constantly risk a race condition that is real bad. A race condition is a situation when you start a legitimate action on an entity but when you arrive to finish the process you are not allowed to do that anymore because in the meanwhile you lost the race with a cuncurrent action. The result is an error and in the worst case an inconsistant configuration.... you risk to loose your items. Not a great thing.

Message from sl23

Thu, 28 Jan 2016 12:18:25 GMT

Re trash, that's fine understand if too much work.

Re switching windows, I'm not a fan of keyboard shortcuts. Is there a reason windows become locked when opening new ones? Performance or stability issue I presume?

Message from Gianluca

Wed, 27 Jan 2016 19:30:15 GMT

So you are suggesting to create a conditional trashed item?
Too much work sorry.
Don't empty your trash if you want to maintain a backup or better you can use an old SyMenu plugin that does the backup for you. Unfortunately it is not selective, but seriously, is there someone over there that has disk space problem on 2016?

Your proposal to mix the configuration form with the SPS Manager is really interesting. I have to think about that. In the meanwhile I can suggest you to open the configuration form and go to Item manager menu - Get new Apps. You open the SPS Manager the same but you have the configuration form already opened.
Would it be the same if the two windows were not modal? You could open both and both can take the focus with the classical ALT+TAB.

Message from sl23

Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:36:16 GMT

How about somehow allowing users to view the trash folders for each app group and use check box to select for deletion?

Also, it would be good to be able to select certain apps that wouldn't be deleted if it was the last known good version.
For example:
1. Firefox gets installed at say version 40.
2. Then it gets updated to v41 and v40 is moved to _Trash.
3. Add option to save previous version of apps, this instance would be Firefox.
4. Empty _Trash via SPS Manager, all apps deleted except Firefox.
5. Firefox gets updated to v42 and v41 is moved to _Trash.
6. Now, as it's only previous version that's saved, on Empty _Trash, v41 remains while v40 and all other unsaved apps are deleted.

In effect this creates a safe backup should you empty trash inadvertently and you find the current version is faulty in some way. Each app could have this feature either as a Checkbox, or probably easier, add a box where a list of 'safe' apps would remain until a second update is received.

I hope that's clear?! I think you get the idea from my rather convoluted example ;-)

It Would also be handy to have a link to open the Configuration window. Or, even better why not combine windows and access them via tabs? It's awkward adding a new SyItem, closing the Get Apps window then going to the tray to open the config window. They should be one and the same or at least have access to each from the other.
edited by sl23 on 27/01/2016

Message from Gianluca

Mon, 25 Jan 2016 18:53:22 GMT

I have to review the entire SPS grid... it's too crawded, some filters are useless (what does it for ordering by version???), and it is painfully slow...
I need to study something smart.

Message from sl23

Mon, 25 Jan 2016 16:32:55 GMT

I agree that new apps are difficult to spot, a filter would be a great step for easing this issue.
edited by sl23 on 25/01/2016

Message from VVV_Easy_Symenu

Sun, 24 Jan 2016 08:21:55 GMT

I've found the way to see what I needed: sort by date in the file browser the list of _Cache folder. And also I see if my published SPS's have been updated.
Not very elegant but it works.

Message from VVV_Easy_Symenu

Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:32:44 GMT

Thank you for you consideration. I think that the two dates are good, the date "Released" tells us the age of the App
The information of "SPS date" is that in this maner we know that a creator of SPS App added a program that believes that is better (or not existant) than what we already had in the suite.

Message from Gianluca

Sat, 23 Jan 2016 15:10:49 GMT

Hello VVV_Easy_Symenu.
The feature you are requestion nearly already available and it's the colum Released on.
I know that today this column is not so accurate because the release date is the program release date and not the SPS one but with the passing of time the program and the SPS release date will converge.
Anyway, since for the new programs the dates are always different, we can evaluate for a furure version a new columns with the SPS date only.

Message from VVV_Easy_Symenu

Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:15:38 GMT

Hello,
Problem: Fortunately today there are many apps in the SPS Suite and the new ones are highlighted with a sign of "NEW". But it's hard to find them with the eyes.
Proposed solutions:
1) A "New" filter button that hide the old apps.
2) Add a column in the apps list of the window "Get new apps SPS" with the "SPS date" and allow to ordenate by this column (for me this is a better solution)

Thanks for Symenu and ...
Cheer up with the work of SyMenu 5 !